Sunday, June 18, 2006

Mormon Truth Uncensored #1-Van Hale




MP3 File

***Update-June 19, 2006***The anti-Mormon God has intervened or conquered the Mormon God, or maybe hell just froze over twice, because iTunes has accepted my podcast. Can you believe it? That gives me hope that I can somehow get my other main podcast, "MORMON TRUTH" re-listed.

To subscribe to this podcast, through iTunes, just simply click the iTunes logo to the right and then the subscribe button. I'm not in the directory yet, but I will be listed within a few days.

***Update***

To subscribe to Mormon Truth Uncensored, through iTunes, you can also just click here.

Congrats, as you are now subscribed and who knows, maybe the Mormon God or even better, the anti-Mormon God, will smile upon us all and allow this podcast to actually be listed in iTunes.)

This is my first addition of Mormon Truth Uncensored and I'm just gonna call it...MTU #1, #2, etc and then a brief description in the Title about what I'm gonna talk about.

Tonight, I must address a local, Mormon, radio talk show host, who is named Van Hale. I have been listening to his show, off an on, since last summer and we have been corresponding for the last week, through Emails, about what is considered to be "Mormon Doctrine."

Of course, he easily dismisses anything that is contradictory to the beautiful painting, that he wants to paint, of the Mormon Church and it's glorious, inspired cult Hierarchy.

Last week, we had Email correspondence and He mentioned me and quoted some of my Emails last week on his show, so now, I'm gonna do him the same service. I fully expect him to continue discussing me this week, as I guess I've inspired him to have this topic and keep it going for two weeks, on what is "official Mormon Doctrine."

You guys need to know what this guy is saying and I hope the Mormon Hierarchy is listening as well.

If I, as a Mormon, or any TBM for that matter, went public and said what he says on a regular basis, on his talk show and in Emails, I'd be called to a "court of love" and most likely exed. Many people have been exed or called to a "court of love" for saying or writing far less then Van Hale gets away with.

Maybe we should start a countdown as to when he will be called in. Of course, the ol' double standard kicks in for some reason, when it involves Van Hale and I'm not sure why.

So, I would like to explore his comments and why and how he gets away with what he does.

I was also pleasantly surprised, that even Jared, the die-hard Mormon Apologist, from my 4 part podcast interview, weighed in on the subject and sent Van Hale an Email, calling my assertions on what is "official doctrine" to be absurd.

Enjoy everyone and I will be doing much more on this subject, in a full podcast with the audio clips of what Van Hale has been saying and many more Email excerpts of what he has written to me, along with what Jared has to say. I wasn't going to make it public, but now they have taken it public, so I will respond accordingly and defend myself against their attacks, such as calling my views absurd.

Thanks for tuning in and as always, thanks for your support.

Samuel the Utahnite

11 Comments:

At Mon Jun 19, 09:04:00 PM 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exactly how do I tune into the Van Hale show? Is it on the internet, radio, TV, what? I'm not sure where to find it. Can you clarify?

 
At Mon Jun 19, 10:58:00 PM 2006, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey, sorry about that Anon, I should have given you guys the link, like I normally do.

You can tune into the Van Hale show every Sunday, between 5 and 7 Utah time, which is mountain time. So, 4 pacific, 6 central and 7 eastern time, just for those that are in other time zones.

Anyway, you can stream the show live and free, on the Internet, on the following website:

http://www.k-talk.com/ns/default.asp

In the upper right hand corner of the page, it says, "LISTEN NOW" and you just click there and you're good to go.

I will be doing much more about this show, mainly due to the personal correspondence that I've had with Van Hale and then Jared got involved, which motivated me even more.

I want everyone to hear the clips where I was mentioned the Sunday before last and to hear the ridiculous positions of Van Hale and his response to the things I've said to him.

To be honest, his responses are so ridiculous and full of massive amounts of cognitive dissonance, that I can't even put it into words. There is a major disconnect inside Van Hales brain and reality, as most of us know it.

Jared also feels that my points of view on "Mormon Doctrine" and most other issues, are just absurd.

Of course my ideas and concepts would seem absurd, when the only thing that you can conceive, is that the Mormon Church is the "one and only true and living Church on the face of the planet."

Van Hale also wrote me a couple of long Emails, as did Jared and I will share with you guys what their views of things are, so that you can all have a better idea of what Mormon Apologists actually believe.

Thanks for the comment and just tune into his show and you'll know what I'm talking about.

I hope this helped and please feel free to leave your opinion of Van Hale and his show. I figured if he was gonna talk about me on my show, I'd talk about him on mine. It's only fair, right?

Best wishes,

Samuel

 
At Mon Jun 26, 08:51:00 AM 2006, Blogger Gunner said...

Just subscribed. Thanks for the instructions as I am software stupid.

 
At Tue Jun 27, 05:13:00 PM 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Samuel,

I look forward to the podcast regarding this subject.

Thanks for all you do.

 
At Thu Jun 29, 03:47:00 AM 2006, Blogger Chris said...

Hey Sam,
this time I have to disagree with your opinion.
You are right that the Mormons avoid stating what their doctrine really is and what speeches of their church authority are actually inspired by God. In my opinion, the General authorities do this intentionally because they don't want to take the responsibility. What I disagree about is your notion of unchanging doctrine.

First of all, I think that this is actually a strong point of Mormon theology. As humanity advances and develops new concepts of morality, Mormon theology can and will improve because the LDS prophets can change the system. The bible on the other hand is a very strict and rigid system, now over 2000 years old. While you might be angry about the racist past of Mormonism, the good side of the story is that the LDS church has actually changed. They gave blacks the right to Priesthood. They have abolished polygamy. And they have changed many statements in the past and will change many statements in the future which are counterproductive. The traditional christian churches which base on the bible can only change their interpretation of the bible, but they are fixed to a 2000 year old canon. However, while Christian theology on the surface seems to be unchanging, this is actually a myth. I can give you several examples from different areas of the bible where the belief of the Jewish people and the Christians have changed over time.

One fundamental theological concept in Christianity is the immaterial "soul". While Christians who only read the bible in their native tongues might think that the soul occurs also in the old testament, this is actually a fake. What happened is that Christians translated the old testament into their own tongues, using new testament theological concepts. However, these concepts are different from what old testament Jews actually believed.

Lets have a look at some verses including the word "soul", hebr. "nephesh".
Lev 17:12 "Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood."
Psalm 103:1 "Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, [bless] his holy name."
Psalm 42:1 "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God."
If you look at the verbs associated with the word soul, "eat", "bless", "panteth", you will recognize that they all refer to things you do with the mouth.
And indeed, the original meaning of nephesh is "throat".
"No throat of you shall eat blood", "Bless the lord, my throat", "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my throat after thee".

Why is this point important? Because the idea of an immaterial soul is a genuine hellenistic thought, totally uncommon to hebrew thought. However, as Christianity got soaked with greek thought during its creation, hebrew and hellenistic thoughts were merged to create this new brand of Judaism called Christianity. There are many other examples of hellenistic influences in the bible, for example the famous "In the beginning was the word (logos)." in John.

When you talk about "unchanging doctrines", the soul is a rather new one, and no old testament Jew thought about it.
In the same way, key concepts of Judaism and Christianity developed over time, e.g. the key concept in Eric's theology, hell, developed from a area around Jerusalem containing waste combustion, hebr. "Ge Hinnam", to the place where bad guys are sent to, greek "Geenna", aka Hell.
On the other hand, other concepts diminished in importance, e.g.
Ps 51:16-17 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."
In the course of the bible, you will several voices which speak against burnt offerings. Thus, there is a shift in theology from outward stuff to true feelings.

Those are just a few examples, I could give a plenty more (e.g. how marriage was and is viewed)to point out that the times of the bible were not times of dogmatic constancy, but of constant changes. Morality changed and improved, hygienic conditions changed and improved. For all those reasons, it is nonsense to ask for static, unchanging laws.
Greets,
Christoph Schmidt.

 
At Thu Jun 29, 12:24:00 PM 2006, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Christoph,

I appreciate your opinion as always, but I think that you have missed the point entirely on this one. The Mormons Brag on one hand, how their God is all powerful and unchanging, yet on the other hand, how the Church is evolving through modern day revelation and that doctrines can change daily, if "God" says it. Do you see any contradictions there?

This evolving or advancement that both you and they describe, completely contradicts what they say they stand for, according to what their God supposedly is. I speak of what they describe as "Eternal doctrines" or "official teachings", not things that people can simply change their opinion on.

These things should be the same today, as they were in 1830, if the Mormon Prophet, is actually in regular communication with his God, right? If God is perfect, how could he screw up, or make mistakes, by teaching something wrong today and then correcting it tomorrow? They describe God as being one thing, but behaving in the opposite way.

If God is perfect and cannot change, knows all and his Prophets and Apostles are in direct communication with him; then there is one right way to go, unless God is a confused God, who doesn't know anything that is going to happen in the future and has learned nothing from the past, which seems to be the case.

On top of this, they brag about how a Prophet or Apostle, can NEVER lead the Mormon Saints astray, because they are "SPECIAL WITNESSES OF JESUS CHRIST."

So, they have a direct pipeline to this never changing, all knowing, all powerful, perfect, incapable of error God, that knows the beginning from the end, but he constantly changes his mind?

Come on Christoph, I know that you are smart and can surely see the ironies that exist here in this equation. Yes Mormons gave blacks the Priesthood in 1978, but only because they caved to social pressures, and they were more than a decade behind the rest of the world. The fought and spent millions, in the late 1970's fighting against Equal rights for women and still feel that way.

All of their teachings, regarding blacks, prior to 1978, prove that they were racist and had no intention of ever giving them the Priesthood, but they blamed it all on their God and hid behind him.

So, if it was true, that it really was the Mormon God's idea, then the Mormon God was a racist and then what, repented of his racist ways? Now their God is starting to sound like the angry God of the Old Testament, that ordered the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children, among many other horrific things?

Had they not done this when they did, the Church would have completely crumbled, and would barely exist today. Certain colleges, wouldn't even play BYU, due to their racism and what they stood for.

Can you imagine today what it would look like, if the Church still didn't give blacks the Priesthood?

As you know, they are now doing the same thing to gays, that want to marry or be with the person they love. Mormons aren't alone, as most Christians like Eric, condemn this as well. At least Mormons finally have a partner in their bigotry and intolerance, right? It's a very sad state of affairs and I feel sorry for anyone that can't overcome their bigotry.

But, yes, they supposedly got rid of polygamy in 1890, but it really didn't start to take hold until the 2nd manifesto in the early 1900's.

Again, the only reason that they did this, was so that they could become a United State, since it was illegal to practice polygamy and they had been breaking state and federal laws, since the 1830's.

The fact is, the Mormon Church still practices polygamy today in their temples, as evidenced in the interview with Joy part 3, podcast 20(her dad is currently sealed in the temple to two living women, with the Mormon First Presidency approval), and section 132 in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Most Mormons know, especially the Hierarchy, that polygamy is the highest law of God, as taught by Joseph Smith and will be practiced in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and in fact, is the only way to be in that level.

Why did Joseph start polygamy and why did an angel of God, with a flaming sword, threaten to kill him, on multiple occasions, if he didn't become a polygamist?

Are you aware Christoph, of the legacy that Joseph Smith has left the world, especially in Utah and Arizona?

These fundamentalist Mormons, that supposedly have nothing to do with Joseph Smith or the Mormon Church, according to Hinckley, are all directly descended from Joseph Smith's polygamous teachings and they still worship him and that is why they are polygamists.

There are an estimated 30,000-50,000 polygamists, living in these areas, all directly related and linked to Joseph Smith and his polygamy teachings.

Warren Jeffs, their Prophet and leader, is currently on the FBI's most wanted list, for child sexual abuse, performing secret weddings of underage children to grown men, etc. Gee, sounds just like Joseph Smith, doesn't it, only the modern day version.

If Joseph Smith were alive today, the FBI would be after his ass too, just like Jeffs. Ironic, isn't it? Jeffs is simply living the same religion that Joseph started and that lasted for over 70 years, before Utah wanted statehood.

After all, they will have worlds to populate with their spirit babies, after they become Gods and Goddesses. I don't know how much of this you know Christoph, having never been a Mormon, but these are facts.

But this all came from the Mormon God through direct inspiration? Well, that's what they claim and if you are a Mormon, that is what you must believe, or Joe was not a Prophet and the Mormon Church isn't true. TBMS or TBM Apologists, cannot have it both ways, even though they try really hard. Either it was inspired or it wasn't and it obviously wasn't.

Why would the Mormon God start something that was and would be against the law and would make his "one and only true Church" look so damn bad, right up until the year 2006 and beyond.

So, yes they evolve, the Mormons and their Hierarchy, but only due to social pressures. They rarely, if ever rescind, apologize for or repudiate any teachings, and still sell them at the Mormon Church owned and controlled Deseret Bookstore.(Jesus' one and only true bookstore on the entire earth)

They do not apologize for past teachings, especially to those affected and they do all of this Christoph, in the name of their God.

So, in conclusion, when I say that their doctrines should be unchanging and perfect from day 1, that is exactly what I mean.

There is just no way, if we use common sense, that a perfect God, would reveal BS doctrine to the Mormon Prophet, only to change it later, unless that God is BS, which we know to be the case.

Remember Christoph, that they promise, that a Mormon Prophet or Apostle, can never lead the Saints astray, or he will be removed.(which doesn't include dying at 96 of natural causes) That is a promise and yet I can point to hundreds and probably thousands of examples where they did and are leading the Saints astray, without any intervention of any God. Why?

Because said God, the Mormon God, or interpretation of God, doesn't exist and the Mormon Church is not led by any God or Jesus, rather men, who just masquerade as "humble servants of God", so that they can rake in their billions and live like Kings, while instilling intense fear into their membership.

I certainly agree Christoph that things should change, evolve and improve over time and that history is not set in stone, yet evolving and living. However, that is man, not any God, that is making or not making the correct changes. We are the ones here, God isn't here, physically, doing anything, is he?

My beef is with the Mormons claiming that it all comes from their God. I think it's time for man to get the credit for his hard work or improvements, or massive screw-ups(blood atonement, Adam-God, Polygamy, Racism, etc), instead of some invisible God.

When firemen rush into a burning building and rescue someone, who gets the credit? Usually you'll hear, "I want to thank God", etc. Who rescued the people? Was it God or a courageous fireman?

If God did intervene, and does intervene for the mundane things, as everyone claims he does(lost keys, winning a sporting event, etc) maybe he/she/it, should turn their gaze toward Africa and many other places in the world, where the suffering and starvation is unbearable. I think you get my drift.

The worlds common view of God, is arrogant, absurd and lacking any common sense at all, as most people want to feel special and that God has singled them out and intervened for them, loves them more, while ignoring the little kid, man or woman down that street, that just got raped, molested, murdered, or whatever. Can't they see the arrogance?

I'm also sick and tired of God/Jesus getting credit for every good thing that happens on this planet, while getting no blame for the daily atrocities on his glorious planet, such as rape, murder, torture, molestations, and every other manner of crime, death and suffering.

If he can get all the credit for the good, then he also deserves blame for the bad, after all, it is his damn planet, isn't it? I'm just speaking on behalf of those that do this. I think for the most part, people are terrified and afraid, to even think about what I just mentioned, because it would shake and rattle their world to its very core.

I'm not afraid to consider it all and accept reality, which I have done, no matter how personally painful the conclusions and reality are. I would rather get a better grasp on things now and know the truth in this life, then to die and find out that I had lived a complete lie and had been fooled, snookered and lied to, by some evil cult

Either we can know now or later, if you believe in an afterlife. For those that don't believe in an afterlife, that should be even more motivation to learn the truth right now, since this life is it, the whole package.

Some people like to live in a little fantasyland of beliefs, deny all the facts and data, just to be able to survive and get through this life and I can understand that. I cling to my belief that I'll be with my loved ones in the next life, because I need that belief, in order to get through daily life. We all do what we have to do, and believe what we need to believe, in order to survive and get through this sometimes painful and pitiful existence.

I have no problem with anybodies beliefs, unless they start to do horrible things because of or for them, turn them into a cult (like the Mormons did) or start condemning anyone that doesn't believe like they do. That is when I step in and call bullshit, since I believe in truth, and humanity.

Anyone that has to thump their Bible, pound their chest and shout "praise Jesus" to the world, while condemning anyone and everyone that doesn't believe or think like they do is not of any God that I would ever want to be associated with and they embarrass themselves and their religion. They do a disservice to themselves and everybody else around them. I can't believe that they can't see their own pathetic hypocrisy. They are as lost as the Mormons are.

When someone's beliefs, no matter what they are, start to hurt other people, that is where I draw the line and that is what I did with Eric Hofmann from the living truth podcast.

He says that "I have a heart for the guy"(me), even though he condemns me and truly believes that I will lose my soul forever, for not believing what he does. That doesn't sound like the kind of heart that I'm looking for, how about you guys?

Oh yeah, silly me, I forgot, he's like God, in that he loves the sinner, but hates their sin...yeah okay, whatever dude!! I love hamburgers, but I hate hamburger...isn't that an equal comparison? Yeah, it may sound absurd, but just as absurd as what Eric and many others say....which is exactly my point.

My point Christoph, just to make sure you understand; is that if God is perfect and has representatives here on earth(as the Mormons claim to have), that perfectly interpret his word, or even better, talk to him directly; it is impossible to ever get it wrong, even once, as God cannot be a racist one day and love blacks the next.

God cannot threaten to kill Joseph Smith one day, if he doesn't become a pedophile polygamist and then one day rescind something that he would have killed his "chosen one" over. It makes no sense, does it?

Then again, Mormons believe that God was once a man, living on an earth just like this one and is apparently evolving right? So why not?

Thanks again Christoph for your comments and we may just have to agree to disagree on this one as my logic and common sense, will not allow me to accept the Mormons "evolving doctrine", as acceptable. I'm surprised that you see things the way you do, but hey, everyone has their point of view and we don't have to all agree.

Samuel

 
At Thu Jun 29, 03:39:00 PM 2006, Blogger Chris said...

Hey again, Sammy,
thanks for the reply.
I can understand what you mean and how you feel.

But the belief in an unchanging God is just totally unrealistic. That is what I pointed out in my previous post. If there really was an unchanging God, we would still be burning cows in Jerusalem. And would you prefer that to the evolving society we have in reality?
Would you prefer "an eye for an eye" over "love your neighbour"?
Would you prefer the old testament food restrictions (which were culturally related) over our freedom?
Lets take a point from another religion, so you can see my perspective from the outside.
In Islam, people have to shake hands and eat with their right hand.
Why? Because it is written in the Hadith. In our society, this makes no sense.
However, in a past nomad society, this was a major PROGRESS in hygiene. For, another rule states that if you go to the toilet, you use your left hand. As in the desert, you hardly have a water toilet, this left hand/right hand system was a marvelous idea to keep the hand with which you eat clean.
Nowadays, as we wash our hands after going to the toilet, this is just an unnecessary rule.
The same holds for many old testament rules about the menses of women, and actually, no Christian follows that old testament stuff.

Secondly, about the view of God:
There is a marvelous book written about this, it's from
Ludwig Feuerbach, "The Essence of Christianity". It explains that God is a personification of our IDEALS. In my opinion, this book is not only a major factor to understand christianity, but especially to understand Mormonism. This is because, the differences between the Mormon God and the traditional christian god reflect different IDEALS in human society.

"God has a wife and children." really means: "Marriage and children are a holy/godly thing." The fact that God was once a man reflects that man has very high (aka godly) potentials.

Most believers see God from a literal point of view. But when you apply logic to the bible and the BoM, you will find that it just doesn't work out. If you start however, to see God and the holy scriptures as a symbolic description of ideals, the literal contradictions become unimportant.
We all have ideals, and we think them to be eternal. Yet, our view changes with history. In the course of the last two thousand years, many concepts have evolved, which no Early Christian knew.
"Consciousness", "Person", "Individuality", all these concepts didn't exist back then.
It was only the concept of individuality which led Martin Luther to rebel against the catholic church which had moved in between God and the believer by creating the Priest caste. He REINTERPRETED the bible using the concepts and ideals of his time.
By the way, the catholic church does not believe in a literal truth of the creation story any more. So they have changed as well.

Ok, much to much written for a comment section.
I suppose that if you start to understand that religion uses a mythological language to talk about ideas and ideals, you will both understand your past faith better and see why people who believe these stories literally act strange because of their logical contradictions.
Currently, you rather take the approach of a child who has found out that Santa Claus isn't real, and you are angry with your parents that they have made that fat guy up.

I hope it helped out.
Chris

 
At Thu Jun 29, 05:43:00 PM 2006, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Chris,

I think that you are still missing my point. I'm not just telling you what I think of God in these comments, rather comparing what the Mormons or Christians say or believe he is and then comparing it to what they say, do and teach, that is contradictory.

I'm also just using basic logic to show that none of it makes sense, what Jared believes or what Eric believes and neither can adequately defend or answer my questions or points, without the ol' "that's were we just need faith."

I asked Eric months ago, who was watching over the universe, if the almighty God, was born as a little baby. Did he just set everything on cruise control or have his Dad or Grandpa take over? He said he didn't know and that he'd get back to me, which he never did of course.

My main point in what I'm saying, or trying to say and obviously not doing a very good job at it, is to point out what a joke the whole thing is and that nobody understands or has a clue who or what God is, especially when you use the Bible to try to figure it out.

One day God is pissed off and slaughtering thousands and then, according to Eric and many Christians, he's born as Jesus and is Mr. nice guy/turn the other cheek. The contradictions are everywhere and Mormonism is just as bad or worse than Christianity.

Did you think that I was just using my own views of God and trying to apply them to Mormons and Christians? I'm trying to say, look, this is what they claim to believe, but this is what they teach or taught and it contradicts what they claim to actually believe. Does that make sense?

I mean if anyone can help me understand why this all powerful, all loving, know it all God, allows one little child to ever be raped and murdered, while supposedly helping someone find their car keys; please help me out and enlighten me.

The arrogance of such a belief, which I once held, is beyond me and I'm ashamed to say that I once felt that I was the "special one", that God was blessing, on little minute things, without even considering why he wasn't helping these other people with much greater needs(such as those that were starving, or being raped and murdered everyday).

I hope this helps you to understand a little better where I'm coming from on this subject. I come from the school of, "there has to be some absolute truth" instead of "anything goes, anytime, because we can't nail anything down for sure."

That is the attitude that apologists and guys like Eric use, to defend their beliefs. You can never pin them down on anything, because everything is vague and dancing in the shadows of gray.

Bottom line, using common sense and our brain, none of it makes sense and nobody has the answer to who or what God is and why he does or doesn't do what he does. Anything that anybody says about God, is pure speculation and interpretation and cannot be proven to have any validity. Nobody will have all the answers, until they die and go to the other side or not. If we cease to exist(as some believe, which I think is illogical, taking into account the whole picture) then we have nothing to worry about, right?

If we don't exist after this life, the problem is over and we won't even know it, because we won't be there and we won't have to debate it, right? I, and other family members and friends, have had experiences that help me to believe that we will exist in the next realm.

But anyway, you can't simply brag about how wonderful and loving God is on one hand, as he allows innocent men, women and children, to suffer and die everyday, on the other hand. Something doesn't jive!!

All the while, you have people everyday, saying "praise Jesus, I'm born again, he helped me find my dog, etc." In my opinion, it's pretty simple; people base their beliefs in God and how loving he is, on their individual experiences, without considering other people's experiences.

Eric, who has a pretty decent life, can't even conceive why somebody whose wife and children, were just raped and murdered, might not see God like he does. What could it be? He can't figure out why they might become angry and an Atheist because, after all, they just need to come unto the Christ/God, who just allowed their children and wife to be raped and murdered. What's the problem right?

How shallow and how sad, that these die-hards, can't see things from others perspectives and are just stuck in their own little pathetic, self-righteous box.

Then they proceed to tell this individual, who just lost so much, is such a horrendous way, that if they don't come to their Christ, they will "lose their soul forever."

Yep, beautiful guys, that's exactly what they need to hear, in their moment of despair and anguish. If this is what God teaches, and this is their God's love, then their God is one jacked up piece of crap and I hope to never meet such a scumbag.

In other words, it's all based on perspective and experiences that an individual has, plain and simple and most people are too closed off and blinded, to even peek outside their box called life, because they are terrified to. I've done it and it was very difficult and still is on many days, but I'm now progressing in thoughts and ideas and not just condemning people in my ignorance and arrogance.

I could go on all day, but hopefully you catch my drift Chris and can see that I'm just exposing inconsistencies through human logic, which is way too much for most Christians/Mormons to handle.

As I've said many times, over and over; I don't really care what a persons individual beliefs are, as long as they don't start condemning others publicly, because of them.

As I've also stated over and over, my issues are with the outspoken activists, Mormon, Christian, or any religion, that condemn anyone, with a blanket, unless they believe precisely what they've determined to be "the only path and truth."

You said,

I suppose that if you start to understand that religion uses a mythological language to talk about ideas and ideals, you will both understand your past faith better and see why people who believe these stories literally act strange because of their logical contradictions.

Chris, you don't think that I understand this? Have you been reading or listening to anything I've said or written? Believe me, I understand that and that has been my point for quite some time now, including in these comments.

Currently, you rather take the approach of a child who has found out that Santa Claus isn't real, and you are angry with your parents that they have made that fat guy up.

Now, these comments of yours, I just find to be rather insulting personally and offensive, as you compare me to a little child, that just found out Santa isn't real? Are you serious?

First of all Chris, this is all new to me and apparently I'm not even close to your amazing level of comprehension, since I'm like a little spoiled child, right?

Is it possible for you to give me some time to learn more and understand better, what has become of my spiritual world and belief system, of 30 + years, that completely imploded, about 1 year ago? I think that I'm doing pretty damn good, for only being out for a year and I'm sure that I'll continue to grow in knowledge and understanding, as I go, just as I have this past year.

But, to compare me to a little kid, that just found out Santa isn't true, is ridiculous and absurd and you know it Chris. I guess that I could compare you to the arrogant people, that once believed the world to be flat and felt that they knew it all, just like you do now. Their ideas were just as absurd as this last statement you made.

I seriously think it's time for you to start your own blog and own podcast, since you appear to be the authority on EVERYTHING God or Bible related, right?

As always, you are entitled to your opinion here and can insult me all you want, but I'm not afraid to tell you, that you have no clue and made yourself look like an idiot, in my never too humble opinion. So, if you want to continue to treat me and talk to me like the little child you think I am, go right ahead and I will respond and treat you accordingly. You seemed like a pretty reasonable guy, but maybe I was wrong.

Now, maybe you should go bug Eric and leave him another comment or two. It's strange; when you thought I was falling for Eric's beliefs, you jumped on me and now that you know that I don't believe what Eric believes, you still jump on me.

I guess the only way we'll ever get along Chris, is if I one day agree to believe exactly as you do, and see everything how you see it, right? Now you are starting to seem like a die-hard Mormon or Christian to me, so snap out of it pal or you are gonna make yourself look worse.

Good luck in whatever it is you are trying to accomplish, because I have no idea what it is, do you?

Oh yeah, I hope this helped...LOL!!

Samuel

 
At Fri Jun 30, 07:10:00 AM 2006, Blogger Chris said...

Rehi Samuel,
man, sometimes you are quite easy to upset.So I'll try to make clearer what I meant with my Santa statement.

The religions taught in Churches are just like the story of Santa Claus bringing presents through the chimney. Parents know it's a myth, but they tell their children anyway. In the same way, the churches know it's a myth, yet, they tell their
parish anyway.
I will first talk about traditional Christian Churches. All Priests and Pastors studying theology have courses on the history of the bible. In these courses, the historical background of each book of the bible is analyzed from the viewpoint of the historical-critical method. Therefore, all Priests and Ministers, who obviously graduated in Theology, know that many stories in the bible are not historical. They know that the Books of Moses were written by several authors and redactors, they know that the Noah-flood story resembles the Gilgamesh-epos, they know about the two-source theory that Matthew and Luke copied from Mark.
Yet, in church they don't talk about these issues. They only tell the stories, then maybe extract some moral conclusion. They are in no way different from parents telling their children the myth, or fraud/lie, as you like, about Santa Claus.

In this way, all people who find out that there are inconsistencies and that the stories in the bible cannot be true, because they are inherently contradictory, are in the same situation as kids who find out that Santa isn't real. I had that experience, too, though I was not member of the Mormon "cult" but just of a mainstream protestant denomination.

Though the situation in the LDS church is slightly different, because there is no professional clergy, the Church authorities probably know about the issues in Mormon history and scriptures as well.

The point I wanted to raise with my comparison was just:
"What is the reason for church leaders telling these lies?" is nothing other than:
"Why do parents tell their children about Santa Claus?", or to take it further:
"Why do parents tell their children fairy tales?"
In that regard, cults, mainstream churches as well as parents act in similar ways.

In the rest of my post, I was not criticizing that you point out the contradictions between
"eternal God" and an "everchanging doctrine", but just stated my >personal opinion< that the Mormon belief in an everchanging
doctrine is actually more correct and even more desirable than the false belief in an eternal Truth which will never change.

I will take the example of your guest Joy, and her friend:
If society will change its opinion about homosexuality and even the conservative parts will change their mind
(as the conservative parts of the American society changed their mind about slavery and equal rights for blacks),
the Mormon everchanging doctrine will change again by "divine revelation".
Thus, maybe Hinckleys successor will anounce that John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, had visited him and told him that
it is ok for homosexuals to marry.
In the same way as they changed polygamy (ok, debatable...) and Black Priesthood, they might change this doctrine as well.
On the other hand, a static canon like the bible cannot be changed at all, only more modern translations and interpretations can change the tone of the texts.
In this concrete case on which we probably agree, the everchanging Mormon church actually bears positive potential, while the conservative christian churches bear the danger of everlasting stagnation.

That's all I wanted to point out.
Is that ok for you or are only comments welcome which either bash Mormons or Christian fundamentalists?
I mean it's your blog, you decide the tone anyway...

Greets, Chris.

 
At Fri Jun 30, 03:01:00 PM 2006, Blogger Samuel the Utahnite said...

Hey Chris,

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying and took it personally, as I thought your comments were directed at me, like I was some clueless little kid, that just found out that Santa isn't real. Trust me, I way beyond that stage, if you can't tell and I've come a very long ways in the last year, which I'm proud of. I just felt that you were insulting me, by saying that I was just like some little kid. Anyway, I understand better what you are saying now, when you apply that in the way you explained in your last message.

Anyway, I actually agree with you that the Mormons are better than the Christians in that regard, that they will actually change things that are no longer acceptable. What I have a problem with Chris, is them claiming that it was from God, when there was no God involved. Everything they do, is in the name of their God, which is complete bullshit, as we know.

However, when they screw up badly and something bad happens or is taught...like Mark Hofmann, racism, polygamy, etc...then it was just a man being a man. Where is their God then, that promises that his beloved "only true Church" can never be led astray.

My point is, that they try to have it both ways, just like the rest of the world-when things go great, or they change something, it was Jesus, or God, but when something very embarrassing happens, well, it was just an uninspired man, even if he was a Prophet or Apostle or whatever.

They pretend that they are some organized Church, with the only truth on earth, that is led and guided by Jesus Christ, through direct and divine revelation through the living Prophet.

It would be an even better Church, if they just admitted that it was run by men since day one, doing what they thought was best or in their best interest, and solely for financial gain and filthy lucre, with no guidance from any God or Jesus.

That would help them clear up all of their sins more easily, like racism, polygamy, pedophilia, polyandry and the like. At least it would explain clearly how all of that was able to happen, supposedly under God or Jesus' watch. At least when somebody writes a story like Harry Potter or Peter Pan, everybody knows that it's for entertainment and financial gain, as they don't pretend that it is a religion.

Right now, it is so embarrassing for them to say that they are led directly by Jesus Christ, yet this happens, that happens, this was taught, this was done, etc, especially when these men that have screwed up so badly, were never removed, as the Mormon Church also promises.

It's just so damn obvious and so clear, that the Mormon cult, is not led or guided by any God, just uninspired men, who have been screwing up since 1830. In fact, all Churches are guided by men, not any God. Anyone been to a Church lately and seen God stand up at the pulpit and give a sermon? Yeah, I didn't think so!!

Again, the Mormon Hierarchy just try to justify all of their sins and screw-ups, as just being human and fallible, yet at the same time, they are also inspired and called of God. I guess one second they are inspired, then human, then inspired....I mean come on, get a clue TBMS.

Furthermore, I've had conversations with Eric Hoffman, and he's even mentioned some things in his podcasts, where he's admitted that there are many fables told in the Bible, or non-historical stories like Noah and the flood, etc.

So, what I find interesting,is that people like Eric and the other die-hard Christians, can dismiss somethings in the Bible, as just fairy tales, or inspirational stories, while other stories are the absolute truth, word for word.

In other words, they are just as bad as the Mormons, in their selective choosing of what is real and legitimate and what isn't, in order to justify their beliefs and ulterior motives.

It's like..well..the flood probably didn't really happen, or Jonah wasn't really swallowed by a whale, but this is what Moses or Jesus said, word for word and it is 100% real and truth and you must believe it and not question it. Ironic isn't it?

Then these very same Christians criticize Mormons for picking and choosing their doctrines, when that's all they do with their Bible.

Again, it's just hypocrisy and double talk, as all that matters to the die-hard Mormons or Christians, is to prove to the world that they have the only truth and that everybody had better follow them or "lose their souls forever", as Eric claims and defends. I find it despicable!!

So Chris, I think we are still on the same page, and we were just misunderstanding each other. I agree that flexibility and changes are good, but not allowed, based on the teachings of Mormonism. Those very changes, contradict their core and basically everything they've taught for over 175 years and demonstratively show that the Mormon Church is a giant fraud and based on lies and deception.

Those changes and claims of living revelation, allow them to do or say whatever they want or justify anything that was ever said or done. In other words, it is always their out.

Like the pathetic Mormon Apologist Van Hale likes to say..."you can have divine and inspired doctrine, that is simply replaced by other divine and inspired doctrine." So the first inspired doctrine, is no longer inspired, because now its replacement is the accepted, inspired doctrine. How could something be inspired by God one day and then not the next? What a sad joke!!

For these people, there are no absolutes in life, other than they have the only truth on earth and you'd better follow them or else. Sadly, they support these claims with nothing but gray matter and very little if any evidence, just arrogance and condemnation of others.

Anyway, that's all for now, as I've gotta run...but thanks for the comment as always Chris and for clearing up what you were trying to say.

Trust me when I say that I'm with you, and my mind is wide open to reality and facts, not mystical BS, that has no proof or requires cognitive dissonance to even comprehend. I escaped that mentality when I found my way out of Mormonism, thank the Mormon God below...LOL!!

Take care,

Samuel

 
At Tue Oct 24, 02:40:00 AM 2006, Anonymous Galatian said...

Dear Samuel,

Thanks for all your work! I think your blog is great, and having read it and listened to podcasts you have inspired me to start my own. I am writing it directed mainly towards Mormons, and in addition to giving my friends the "anti-mormon" literature (AKA the TRUTH) I have given them my blog site address.

Good luck, keep up the good work! You're working straight from the belly of the beast! Good man!

 

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