Thursday, July 27, 2006

Mormon Truth Uncensored #4-Van Hale And The Historicity Of The Book Of Mormon

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"I'm not persuaded that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient history." - Van Hale-September 18, 2005

"I am not persuaded that the detail in the Book of Mormon is detail pertaining to people that anciently lived on the Americas."- Van Hale-September 18, 2005

"Well, my point of view regarding the plates is that the plates did exist, that they were delivered to Joseph Smith by an angel and they were shown to witnesses of the Book of Mormon and that gave them something tangible to testify about, that they had seen the plates and handled them but I don't think that Joseph Smith was, that the Book of Mormon relates to anything that was on the plates. It was, I don't know what word to use to, without, without it sounding crude, but uh, the only word I can think of is the idea of a prop."-Van Hale-September 18, 2005

This podcast deals with the Mormon apologist/talk show host Van Hale and his views on what exactly the Book of Mormon is, since he believes that it is not an actual history of the people that lived in ancient America, which is what the Mormon Hierarchy have taught and believed since 1830. I sent him an Email during the show on Sunday and he only read the first 3 lines and was amazed and astonished at my inability to comprehend what he had actually said earlier in the show.

So, in this podcast, I will read the rest of the Email that I sent him, that he didn't read and let you hear for yourself, what he actually said, that prompted my Email and you can all decide for yourselves, what he said, versus what Van Hale thinks he said.

But, to say that the historicity of the BOM isn't "emphasized" by the Mormon Hierarchy, which would include being taught in seminary, in Sunday School, institute classes, in General Conferences, in Ensigns, by missionaries and the BOM itself, is a flat out lie and deception by Van Hale. The Church does emphasize it and always has, in all of the places I just mentioned above. What is the purpose of FARMS, now officially part of BYU since 1997, thanks to Hinckley?

It is so amazing that Van Hale, actually believes that the "golden plates" were just a "prop", to have something tangible for the witnesses of the BOM to see and feel. Wow, that would be outright deceit, by Joseph Smith and the Mormon God, wouldn't it? I guess we are back to lying for the Lord again, aren't we? I don't even think that Daniel Peterson would dare take it that far and he's about as bad as it gets with the Apologetics, or so I thought.

Van Hale doesn't believe that what is contained in the BOM, has anything to do with what was on the plates. Amazing, I know, but this is how far his beliefs have slipped into very deep cognitive dissonance, in order to keep his testimony of the Mormon Church.

Randy Jordan called his understanding of what is contained in the BOM(as you can clearly see from above), as "inspired fiction", which Van Hale then refuted and asked Randy, "do you not think that you have the ethical obligation to be accurate?" I think Randy Jordan nailed it perfectly!!

I mean, this Van Hale guy is ridiculous!! I don't even think that he knows or remembers what comes out of his own mouth and if he does, doesn't comprehend what it means, because he uses apologetics on himself and his own words, while everyone else can see right through him and his words. As screwed up as the beliefs of Mormonism are, Van Hale's understanding of these screwed up beliefs, is beyond belief and takes it all to a whole new level.

Let me get this straight, Grant Palmer gets called to a "court of love" and disfellowshipped after about 6 hours, for writing a book exposing Mormonism(including the falsity of the BOM), which the Church sells for 2 years in Jesus' personal bookstore(Deseret Book) and which they still sell in the BYU bookstore(which is part of Jesus' one and only true and living university); and Van Hale can say whatever he wants about anything to do with Mormon Doctrine(even that the book of Mormon is not historic) and nothing happens to him?

On February 6, 2005 , Van Hale released his "official statement" of what he believes the Book of Mormon is and it is an interesting read for those that are interested in reading the deepest depths of Mormon cognitive dissonance.

There is something strange going on with this Van Hale situation and maybe it's just the typical hypocritical BS that always goes on within Mormonism, as it just always depends on who you know and whose palms are getting greased. Van Hale used to have access to the vaults, pre-Mark Hoffman, so who knows? I'm sure he knows way more than he would ever tell us.

I then discuss the "official position" that the Mormon Hierarchy takes on the Book of Mormon historicity and Deconstructor also has done a great page on this, with most of the same quotes. Simply put; you cannot be a good, upstanding, true believing member of the Church and be allowed to openly have the opinion that Van Hale has of the Book of Mormon. Many others, that have had this very opinion, have been either excommunicated or disfellowshipped. I just want to know how Van Hale gets away with it, while others are punished.

On Mormon website), on the page where non-members go to order a free Book of Mormon, to find out just what the hell it is, it says:

The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, is a record of God's dealings with the inhabitants of ancient America.

The Title page of the Book of Mormon says:

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites.

The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.

After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.

So, you guys tell me, does the introduction page in the Book of Mormon, make it sound like an "ACTUAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT INHABITANTS OF AMERICA, THAT ARE THE PRINCIPAL ANCESTORS OF AMERICAN INDIANS?" Sorry Van Hale, my misunderstanding I guess!!

I ask again, how is Van Hale able to get away with this, while Simon Southerton and Brent Metcalfe get excommunicated for espousing similar views and Grant Palmer was disfellowshipped? Your guess is as good as mine, but there can be no doubt what the Church emphasizes regarding the BOM, since it is right on the introduction page of the Book of Mormon. To say otherwise is deceitful, a lie and completely ridiculous and absurd.

Enjoy everyone and please leave your comments!!

Samuel the Utahnite


At Fri Jul 28, 07:35:00 PM 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another superb podcast. I wrote that guy once telling him I liked the guest he had on his show and he wrote back telling me thanks for being a supporter. His guest was some exMormon who put Van Hale to shame.

I have not listened to him again because he seems like a freaky Mormon who will stand up for the church, no matter what evidence he has to the contrary.

Van hale is gooofball.

I appreciaate yhour podcasts because you call it like it is and make so much sensee. Thank you for a great podcast!

At Fri Jul 28, 10:59:00 PM 2006, Anonymous ray said...

When I was first new to all the issues of the church, I listened to a Van Hale show from some web site. I didn't know who he was at the time. All I knew was that he was defending the church. He had a guest and they were talking about Joseph Smith. I remember that the guest basically stomped Van Hale into the ground. Yet, Van Hale continued on with his wordy way of saying things, making himself look more and more like an ass. I felt embarrased for the guy. I wonder if there is actually anyone who takes him seriously? But yea, your podcast was good and I was shocked when he read your email and was surprised that he had given you the "wrong" impression. You're right. He says one thing and then denies it minutes later. I'm gonna tune in every Sunday from now on, just to be amused, if nothing else. Samuel, personally I wouldn't worry too much about him... he is either too ridiculous to listen to OR he is helping your cause by making people aware of the issues with the church! So don't be too harsh on him!

At Fri Aug 04, 09:37:00 PM 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just went and read Van Hale's blog. That man is so mixed up and twisted in hi s beliefs. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth, and all the while thinking that it is always the other person who has it wrong.

Your points, Samuel, are so clearly defined, logical, and orderly. Van Hales, on the other hand, cannot say the same thing twice in a paragraph without contradicting himself.

of course, he just would say that I do not undrestand him, and try to re-explain his idiotic drivel. the guy should be the next prophet--he sure knows how to do a double talk and try to come out of it looking like he knows what he is talking about.

It is disgusting to listen to him inasmuch as he wants to walk a fine line, turn around, go over and then under and finally end up back where he started. then he wants to call that a straight journey.

What an idiot. He has a lot of Gordon Hinckley in him. Just keep feeding them bullshit, they will eventually get used to the taste.

I personally do not find VH's shows interesting. He is so damn illogical, it is not worth my time to listen to him. Samuel, you do a wonderful job in the way you express yourself. VH could take a big lesson from you.

At Tue Aug 22, 04:47:00 AM 2006, Blogger jumpboot said...

I continue to be amazed at how mopologists can admit that the BOM is pure fiction and yet continue to proclaim mormonism as "true." It seems to me that if the "cornerstone of the religion" is made of green jell-o (you know, with little slices of carrots floating in it) that the rest of the church would just crumble.
Once I realized what a sham it all was, I was forced to abandon whatever shred of "testimony" I once had.
It feels good to be free of the "one and only true church." It really does.

And to any TBM's out there that happen upon's okay to admit that the church isn't all it claims to be. Life will continue and you won't be damned to hell just because you don't believe in Joe Smith anymore. Take back your lives and do something fun! I love going to movies on Sundays now! You only live once, right? Why let some senile old dude tell you how to live it?

At Tue Feb 13, 11:45:00 AM 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In a weird way, I am grateful for websites like this because they help me do one thing- STRENGTHEN my testimony.To deny The Book of Mormon and the beliefs I have as a LDS member is something that I would not be able to do. The day will shortly come when we will be judged, and I await to hear the words in this time of darkness and despair, Well done, My faithful servant...
A Strong member

At Mon Nov 10, 06:05:00 PM 2008, Blogger sb said...

well, it's sad to hear people like jumpboot would say something like that about the church..
i know for myself that the Book of Mormon is was, is and always will be..
by the way,jumpboot..if you what you said that the church is juz like a jell-o..etc..and you'd see it crumble..? well, now you should know better than that..coz it's becoming stronger and lost your grief so sad to know had your testimony and turned aways from it because of what you learned from the antis..i don't know if you can call it a real testimony at all..

but someday, whatever you said will stand as a testimony in that great day when we stand to be judged by HIM..YOU will be a witness against YOU..


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